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Otherkin: A Short Introduction.

By reklaw in CultureFri May 23, 2003 at 04:09:55 AM EST Tags: Culture (all tags) Culture

I have heard a lot recently about Otherkin (aka Fae, Fairths, Metahumans) -- those who believe that they are spiritually or physically other than human. It might surprise you to know that whole communities have built up around these kinds of beliefs.

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Now, just to get this out of the way, I'm not Otherkin myself. However, I have a friend who is, and so I decided to do a little research. The Awakening First off, non-humanity (at least spiritually) is the core belief of Otherkin. By far the most common seems to be the belief that they are a creature from mythology, like a dragon or an elf, although aliens and normal animals can be included. Otherkin from races who haven't been found before or don't exist in reality or fiction are welcomed as unique. These beliefs fall into two categories: those who believe that they are a non-human in a human's body (spiritual Otherkin) and those who believe that they actually are non-human, and just their appearance is just a Seeming -- an illusion to protect them. The Awakening is the name given to the realisation that one is not human (and so was a Sleeper), and it can take anywhere from a few days to years. Otherkin who had a very quick Awakening often describe it as unpleasant. There is a general consensus that people who Awakened Otherkin believe to be Sleepers should be given information but not forced in any way. Beliefs Beliefs in the Otherkin community are a lot wider than you would expect. Bear in mind that hardly any Otherkin share all of these beliefs -- most have a mixture. Often, Otherkin believe that they are from another world or place in the universe, and feel like they don't belong on Earth. This is known as Yearning. They often find speak a unique language from this homeworld, and may believe that they lived out a past life on it. These past life memories are another key belief, and the main cause of that pain during an Awakening -- essentially, the memories they discover might be unpleasant, perhaps even memories of dying or worse. Otherkin often keep diaries during their Awakening and after documenting any memories they might have. Another frequent belief is the True-Form, which is a 'real' body outside of the Seeming. For example, a dragon Otherkin will have wings, and will be able to feel them as a sort of aura, and perhaps see them. Otherkin with the Sight are said to be able to see the True-Form of themselves or others, even those who are still Sleeping. Interestingly, some Otherkin feel RPG-style Callings, for example to Heal or to Guard a specific person or just everyone, and will devote their lives to doing just that. Although most Otherkin appear not to believe in special abilities, many do. These could include being able to make contact with the spirit-world (Channel), as well as being an Empath, one who is able to feel the emotions of others without either needing to speak. A minority believe that they are Multiples who Host a number of different spirits, and may hear one or more of them at once when trying to decide on what to do at a given moment. They often report heated debates taking place, as well as calmer philosophical discussions. Who and Why? This is a thorny one. Since being Otherkin is such a non-standard belief and generally isn't accepted (or even known of) by society, many Otherkin spend most of their lives being told that they are insane, and wondering if it is true. If you speak to many Otherkin on the Internet, you may find that they have been put on anti-depressants, or are lonely. The Otherkin community can help fight this feeling of loneliness by giving them similar people to talk to. There is also, at least among some, a feeling of superiority, and that normal humanity is beneath them. However, in my opinion, calling Otherkin delusional or insane is obviously highly disrespectful, and their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other. It is true that Otherkin are more common among those who read a lot of fantasy or sci-fi stories, and also those who already have a belief in Paganism or Wicca, and New Age practices like Reiki. Many adult Otherkin actually make a living as Reiki practioners or similar. The argument here goes both ways -- it is true that people like this are more prone to an Awakening, but couldn't this be simply because they are more open-minded? Resources Otherkin FAQ What the heck's an Otherkin? (Warning: Pop-ups) How do I tell someone that I'm Otherkin? Otherkin at MSN Communities Society > People > Otherkin in the Google Directory Sponsors

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Also by reklaw Display: Threaded Minimal Nested Flat Flat Unthreaded Sort: Unrated, then Highest Highest Rated First Lowest Rated First Ignore Ratings Newest First Oldest First Otherkin: A Short Introduction. | 407 comments (388 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden) Eww. (4.41 / 24) (#2) by Kasreyn on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:38:19 AM EST Awakening? Seeming? Yearning? Blech. Sounds like something badly ripped-off from a White Wolf RPG. You know, those Creature: The Something books. Reminds me of these modern-day Wiccans, trying to feel cool by resurrecting a dead religion and adding all sorts of goth and pop culture junk to it. I mean, yes, everyone with a brain has to go through their anti-Christianity phase before they can settle down into adult agnosticism. But couldn't they pick a more sensible way to childishly rebel, like atheism? I know one guy who's convinced he's a Dragon. (He's also into Wicca and angst-ridden goth TV like "Angel", not surprisingly). He's also done more LSD than anyone I've ever met before, and recently had a drunken orgy, got naked, had conversations with his hallucinations, imagined he was turning into a dragon, and smashed up all 3 of his TV remotes with a baseball bat in the bathroom. His psychosis is not, I am sure, indicative of all the weirdos who aren't comfortable with being human. But all the same, I try to avoid them all I can; if a person is irrational enough to truly (not jokingly) believe they're a "vampire", they're probably irrational enough to do any goddam crazy thing. -Kasreyn "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:We never asked to be born in the first place."R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed. True by President Saddam, 05/22/2003 03:09:47 AM EST (4.62 / 8) Same here! by LilDebbie, 05/22/2003 03:41:45 PM EST (5.00 / 3) What special powers? by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:21:40 PM EST (4.00 / 3) *sigh* I hate closed-minded people by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:17:54 PM EST (3.44 / 9) Just curious.. by rasmoh, 05/23/2003 05:10:46 PM EST (5.00 / 5) Re: Just curious.. by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 05:45:04 PM EST (3.00 / 5) autobiography? by Hana Yori Dango, 05/23/2003 06:22:56 PM EST (3.00 / 11) sooooo by /dev/trash, 05/25/2003 11:05:43 PM EST (4.00 / 1) In Defence of OtherKin (4.06 / 29) (#4) by snowlion on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:52:33 AM EST (Note: Due to some kind of mistake in the posting process, old comments, quoted below, are missing.)"Many people are prone to inventing fantasies rather than dealing with reality...it's much easier to make crap up than to work out how the universe really works.""Sounds a lot like White Wolf's 'Mage' to me. If they're borrowing terminology from that, it shows how serious this community really is.""What is it good for? It sounds like a bunch of preschool kids crawling around, going 'Rawr, I'm a tiger,' 'I'm a unicorn!'""I think 'The Awakening' is merely the onset of a delusional state of mind...definition...is: 'A false belief held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.'... I simply cannot believe that people who are mentally stable can take this stuff seriously.""...I hate to be harsh, but these people are just plain dillusional.""I don't understand who on earth would get themselves involved in such ridiculous and mindless drivel."---Key arguments: Inventing fantasies, not dealing with reality. Avoiding figuring out how the universe really works. It comes from RPG's. What is it good for? Rediculous. Delusional. Can't be taken seriously. Invalidated by evidence.Inventing Fantasies, not Dealing with RealityThe picture given is almost identical to the picture of fantasy readers in general.Most people call it escapism when someone even just reads a fantasy book. Fiction is all right, as a whole, just as long as it doesn't get "out there." If it's a fictional recounting of World War II, that's not escapism. But as soon as something gets out of line, it's suddenly "escapism".Why are they reading it? "Because they are trying to escape the terrible reality around us."So the assuptions there are basically: Reality is terrible. Fantasy casts a spell on you, where you think it's not. When you've had it with this world, you read fantasy.I mean, we're sort of supposed to feel sorry for these poor creatures who read fantasy. They just can't take it.Most people then pull out the image of some fat loser who's lost in sci-fi or star trek, always living in his mother's basement, and (of course) he's never had a girlfriend. You don't want to be like this person, and this person is a fantasy reader. Nudge nudge- get the ticket?In my experience, most of the fantasy readers I have met are pretty "successful" in terms of most people's definition. They are now finishing their PhD's, or working in big companies making big bucks, they are highly intelligent, and they are very much involved in the world;Far more than most people at that. They are physics students, computer programmers, and electrical engineers. They are married, have dated, or even have kids.They aren't escaping. Many are improving the world we live in.This isn't to say that my friends are representative of all fantasy readers. I've met people who were also living in their parents basement.But the point is: There's nothing intrinsic to reading fantasy that means "escape".Personally, my feeling is that people who avoid fiction are doing the escaping. They don't like something about imagination, and they somehow fear it. Why? I don't know. I don't understand it.Avoiding figuring out how the universe really works.Okay, at this point, I have to pull out Steuard, everyone's favorite Elwing the Demigoddess, and our resident high school prom king.Look, he's getting his fucking PhD in String Theory. Again, most of my friends are chemists, mathematicians, physicists. You can say that the CS majors are avoiding reality- fine, but by and large, this whole thing is really overdone.(Note: Most are not OtherKin, but they are most fantasy/sci-fi readers.)In my experience, people who read sci-fi (in particular) and fantasy are more interested in Physics, Mathematics, and stuff like that, than people who don't.Einstein said that imagination was more important than knowledge. I'm with Einstein. And I'd further argue that anyone who was cutting themselves off from imagination is going to be substantially cutting themselves off from knowledge as well. Knowledge seems to follow after imagination, not preceed it.It comes from RPG's.The argument goes something like this: Fantasy stories and RPGs put crazy thoughts into people's heads. Some player's think it's real. Some make up similar stuff, and think it's real. But it's from an RPG. Therefor it's not....or with more development... A being is of a race or they are not, it's not something that can change. But the person knows themself by reading an artists work. If the person read another artists work, they might identify another, different way. Thus it's unlikely to be real.(Special link: Galaxy Quest: "It's all real-" "-I KNEW it!" Ignore if you don't follow.)So, the second is a good argument, I'll address the 1st afterwards.To address this, I give the following explanation, which I'll call "sympathetic identity." A person has a mind, formless. Nonetheless, the mind has a "shape" or inclination of it's own, at least for a duration. That shape may feel naturally sympathetic to particular forms rather than others. The mind can identify any which way.So if a person is attracted to novels with elves and the like, and thinks that they are an elf, because they feel far more natural in the context of elves, what difference does it make if it were some other author's similar-but-different story of what it is to be an elf?As for the 1st argument: We have to consider the source. Artists are making this stuff up. They are human, they have human minds. That qualifies them to figure out what other minds may be interested in being as well. Thus the foreign source is not a "problem."Finally: Consider what an RPG is. It's a Role Playing Game. So naturally, if you have an inclination in a particular role, a particular identity, then what's the problem there? If you chose the role, then it came from within you. If you pick up a book, that choice came from within you. How was it placed in there? We don't understand that kind of thing, we don't even understand why or hwo we are experiencing a world (rather than being unconscious but responsive). We don't know. So no one can really say.What is it good for?First, I don't think either desire or existance has to justify itself. It Just Is.The question is similar to "What good is being yourself?" I don't really know, I don't have a good answer to that.(I'd like to note here that, I, personally, do not consider myself to be a non-human or an alien or dragon or anything like that. I did name myself Lion, but I feel no sort of spiritual connection with lions, or identify as a lion.)What good is the question? What's it discriminating for us?That said, I thank the Damanhur people for making such beautiful exotic rooms in their amazing temple. So if you like good art, there's one use.Another: I personally believe that anything that gives you a stronger understanding of who you are is a good thing. And it's difficult to talk about "delusional" when talking about self-image. What Ghandi delusional for having the self-image of being a Saint, before being recognized as one? How about Joan of Arc? Was she delusional? What about Andrew Carnegie. When he was a kid, he said he was going to be the richest man in the world. But he was just hauling scrap, or whatever. Was he delusional?I don't mean to say that the person who thinks they are a spirit is the same as the young Andrew Carnegy; I mean to point out the relationship between personal self-image, and our actual actions. That is, that what you think about yourself affects your life. And if someone feels most connected to the image of an elf, and thinks and speaks and acts that way, then in a certain sense it has become real.Has their genetic code changed? No. But if they want to believe so, I say, "OK, Fine." I disagree, but in terms of what you think about yourself- That's just incredibly sacred territory. To desecrate that... (shudder...) Never.To personal utility- if someone feels somehow more at peace with themselves or their nature by identifying as an elf, or a spirit, or as a horse, or wolf, or whatever, Whatever it is that they want to feel like or actually feel like, I say more power to them. What is the utility of inner peace? I think it has utility, even in measurable "how many times can you turn this crank for me" ways, if you must.Personally, I feel the world would be a better place if more adults were tigers and unicorns.Rediculous.Some of it sounds pretty goofy. A lot of it sounds like some way of bragging, and I don't like it. "I'm a high elf, unlike you mere humans." Spare me, please.But rediculous?Unless it's something like the above bragging, I disagree.Strongly disagree. Very strongly.I mean, first, people have believed these kinds of things for centuries, and have not been ridiculed. Shamans, people in other cultures, totem animals; People have always felt connections with the things around them.Did you think Yoda was rediculous? Yoda came on the screen, and you thought, "What a bunch of rediculous claptrap?" I didn't. Maybe you did. But some of the most famous people in history have been deeply moved to noble (and ignoble!) acts by such beliefs. They are not ridiculed.Do you laugh when you see Japanese people on TV saying good morning to their dead ancestors? Yeah, ain't it a kick? What losers.Actually, let me take this all back and put it another way-I think there's an enormous culture rift between people calling this rediculous, and the people actually doing this kind of thing. So maybe the best approach is to describe my personal experience:I've met people who have, in all sincerity, believed that they were not natural to this world (not my elsewhere-mentioned friend Kami-chan, incidentally, who's beliefs I have no idea of), and have had ideas of being agents from another plane somehow, or whatever have you. They were not illogical or crazy; These were just story/frameworks that they lived in.Look, here's some people's framework: You're born. You live. You die.That's it. Okay, what evidence is there of it? It's what we see around us, in our day-day waking existence. Is it leaving anything out?Of course. It doesn't talk about before, it doesn't talk about after, it doesn't explain weird phenomenon we may experience in this life, it doesn't describe our subjective experience, it doesn't include imagination, all kinds of stuff. "Oh, well that stuff doesn't count." It doesn't? "Yeah, because it's not scientificly determined." Well, okay, excuse me. There are ways of thinking that are not scientific, but also rationally valid.For example, if you perceive other worlds, why should you toss it out? "Ah, well, it's not repeatable, independently observable." Well, I disagree with that, I know of many points where people have shared observations. "Well, it wasn't in a lab." Okay, well "Fuck you too." How's that for a counter-arg. (It's a bad one.)For an eloquent counter-arg, read the epilog to Michael Crichton's "Travels". Michael Crichton, who's done a movie and written a few books, served as a doctor and Psychiatrist, has a lot of metaphysical notions, and he quite eloquently argues why in the back of his book. I'm not as eloquent as he, I just say, "Oh yeah? Well Fuck You Too." But he actually does a good book of articulating what I mean.But these notions aren't rediculous. People have been feeling these things for Aeons, and will feel them for Aeons future.I would also like to point out that in countries around the world, scientists hold metaphysical ideas. In my experience, it's mostly just the US & Europe where scientists are religiously against metaphysics. But in other countries, it's not that way. I'm not talking about backwards Brazil, I'm talking about Japan again. Engineers will build robots and stuff on the "Metaphysics of the Square" and talk about spiritual theories of Souls and transmigration in their scientificly dissertations on childhood development. It's not dominant, it's not hidden, it's just there as a "perhaps this explanation." They aren't too worried about it. We just seem to be all hung up about it here. "How dare they?!" The horror!Delusional. Can't be taken seriously.More of the same, but I'll add that many of the people I have described are quite sane.Here, a personal example.One day, I had the notion that a good friend of mine, "Kami-chan", was not native to this plane of existance, somehow. It wasn't a sudden realization, it's just a notion that gestated over time.So, what am I supposed to do with this notion? I suppose I could debate it to death, like beating it into a bloody pulp. I could think of all the reasons to doubt such a thing; There are many good arguments you could make.But I decided against it, and just saw it for what it was: An idea in my head.Is it true?I don't know. Who does?Can you live with not knowing what is True and what is not?(Ooooooh- I think I just hit the nail right on the head.)I can live with that. So this idea, image, whatever, came to me, and it seemed to be true. I realized that there's no way to say whether it is true or not. I decided to name him Kami-chan (btw, never say that phrase to a Japanese), and let him know what I thought.His response? "That's interesting," and sort of thought about it for a while. I don't know what he thinks. I just know what I have thought for the past few years.So who gives a flying fuck? You want to say I'm delusional? Say I'm delusional then. I don't care.If it just came from my imagination, fine. That doesn't necessarily invalidate it, even. We are awarenesses, living in MINDS. Minds can take whatever form they like, right? The forms they chose reveal something about their nature. This does not perturb me.Finally:Invalidated by evidence.Well, no, not really.Look, there's no evidence that the world is real, and not just an illusion.It's perfectly plausible to me, hell, I even consider it likely, that this world is something that our minds stumbled across, and decided to couple with. So far, I see no evidence against that perspective.I do see some cracks in the "this world only" perspective. In fact, I see the #1 crack in it. Namely, that I'm seeing anything at all..! There should be no need for it; The computer that is the world should just run in a closet without anyone ever seeing it. My neurons could fire and my body could move just fine, without being a display to a mysterious viewer (namely, yourself and myself). The physical model can explain EVERYTHING, except the very viewer that can see it all. That seems like a pretty big crack to me. If you said, "Look in this microscope, and see the weird bacteria there!", but then next told me, "Oh, but the microscope itself doesn't exist," I'd have some doubts about your weird bacteria as well.So the "invalidated by evidence" thing is just totally wack. We could very well be spirits, ghosts, souls, creatures, races, beasts, devils and angels, tigers and dragons, raging from world to world through the celestial harmony.No one can say otherwise, with certainty.You really do not know.Further Reading: The Neverending Story, & Momo, by Michael Ende, both famous in Germany. Michael Ende goes a long way to talk about how we bash our concepts of imaginationk, and the damage we cause ourselves for doing so. --Map Your Thoughts Basically, It Boils Down To Reality by Juppon Gatana, 05/22/2003 01:23:03 AM EST (4.57 / 7) Of course, by reklaw, 05/22/2003 01:28:12 AM EST (1.00 / 1) Prayer by Juppon Gatana, 05/22/2003 01:41:28 AM EST (4.83 / 6) *almost* instinctively by delmoi, 05/22/2003 10:08:15 AM EST (4.66 / 3) Looking in the Mirror. by snowlion, 05/22/2003 01:30:00 AM EST (3.00 / 3) In My Mind by Juppon Gatana, 05/22/2003 01:45:47 AM EST (none / 0) Everything you Perceive, you Perceive through Mind by snowlion, 05/22/2003 02:47:18 AM EST (3.50 / 4) Most environmentalists are, in fact... by gordonjcp, 05/22/2003 05:22:31 AM EST (3.40 / 5) Speak for yourself by Emissary, 05/23/2003 03:33:11 AM EST (none / 0) We don't have logging, or logging protests here. by gordonjcp, 05/23/2003 03:45:55 AM EST (none / 0) So's spiking trees by Emissary, 05/23/2003 05:11:46 AM EST (none / 0) Well... (a tale from the distant past) by gordonjcp, 05/23/2003 05:26:59 AM EST (3.83 / 6) Hard Core Earth-Firsters. by snowlion, 05/24/2003 12:45:02 AM EST (4.50 / 2) Sounds more like it... by gordonjcp, 05/27/2003 04:58:22 AM EST (5.00 / 1) The poster above by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 03:45:18 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Those guys sound like idiots by Emissary, 05/24/2003 01:07:35 AM EST (4.66 / 3) They were, as you point out, idiots. by gordonjcp, 05/27/2003 04:57:01 AM EST (5.00 / 1) My God! by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 03:44:04 PM EST (none / 0) No matter what your level of naivete is by Happy Monkey, 05/29/2003 03:37:05 PM EST (none / 0) in my mind by delmoi, 05/22/2003 10:04:24 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Yes! Identity and desire. by snowlion, 05/22/2003 10:51:23 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Ah, so that's how it works... by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 03:47:53 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Right On. by CodeWright, 05/22/2003 09:49:21 AM EST (2.66 / 3) Good post, but by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 01:37:54 AM EST (4.75 / 8) Progress, Seeming, Identity, Your Favorite Color. by snowlion, 05/22/2003 02:37:30 AM EST (3.00 / 7) i just by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 03:13:50 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Oh Yeah, well.. Sure. by snowlion, 05/22/2003 03:36:58 AM EST (none / 0) Beliefs by zakalwe, 05/22/2003 07:06:49 AM EST (4.33 / 3) Evidence accepted on FAITH by snowlion, 05/22/2003 09:53:09 AM EST (2.00 / 3) Yes by zakalwe, 05/22/2003 11:09:46 AM EST (5.00 / 1) This worldview isn't complicated, or split in two. by snowlion, 05/22/2003 10:44:48 PM EST (2.50 / 2) Consistency by zakalwe, 05/23/2003 04:34:04 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Mathematics Requires no Evidence. by snowlion, 05/23/2003 11:28:18 PM EST (5.00 / 1) spoon bending by majcher, 05/25/2003 01:39:11 PM EST (5.00 / 1) But mathematics IS founded on evidence by DrH0ffm4n, 05/25/2003 03:49:20 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Suggestion by BlueOregon, 05/26/2003 01:41:13 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Thank you by DrH0ffm4n, 05/26/2003 08:26:15 AM EST (none / 0) Mathematics and Logic by zakalwe, 05/26/2003 06:21:36 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Healthy Skepticism, Experiences, Dreams by snowlion, 05/26/2003 11:04:04 AM EST (none / 0) Any argument can be contradicted by solipsism by Emissary, 05/23/2003 03:44:02 AM EST (5.00 / 5) Axiomatic truth is in the eye of the beholder by Skwirl, 05/22/2003 11:22:10 AM EST (4.50 / 2) Sign-up Sheet by snowlion, 05/24/2003 01:16:46 AM EST (none / 0) Mental Penetration by snowlion, 05/24/2003 01:19:56 AM EST (none / 0) More than two ways... by Skwirl, 05/22/2003 08:15:25 AM EST (3.00 / 2) ack! :-) by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 09:24:50 PM EST (none / 0) Cheating on the top of the list by pin0cchio, 05/23/2003 03:47:26 PM EST (5.00 / 1) nice... makes esperanto look like sanskrit (n/t) by yammering communist, 05/25/2003 11:42:06 PM EST (none / 0) Existentialism & Meaning. by snowlion, 05/23/2003 11:55:36 PM EST (none / 0) Basically, we could call this ... by pyramid termite, 05/22/2003 08:23:01 AM EST (4.25 / 4) You are You. by snowlion, 05/24/2003 12:28:55 AM EST (3.66 / 2) omg, biggest nerd ever by Liet, 05/23/2003 03:33:23 AM EST (2.75 / 4) You're crazy! by Cro Magnon, 05/23/2003 09:56:31 AM EST (none / 0) http://www.mhsource.com/schizophrenia/schizfaq.htm (4.57 / 21) (#6) by yammering communist on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:59:22 AM EST Let me preface my statement by saying that I will be giving this article +1 to section. It's well-written, and thought-provoking, in its own way.But I'm sorry. I hate telling people that something into which they have invested some level of intellectual energy is stupid bullshit, but faced with this, I have no other choice. I like to think of myself as open-minded, but I have just discovered the big, thick, obvious line between "different and interesting" and "mind-bogglingly random and meaningless."I'm no stranger to bizarre thoughts; I've smoked my fair share of pot, dropped acid about a dozen times. For about a year of my life, I was on antidepressants. I even once considered myself a Liberterian. I used to want to be a computer programmer - as a job, for the rest of my life! But not once did I ever think of myself as non-Human. Even when ripped to the tits on four or five different drugs, watching all of the leaves of trees outside morphing into huge red-pupiled eyes, I did not lose my essential concept of self.But, you said something worth everone's attention:"However, in my opinion, calling Otherkin delusional or insane is obviously highly disrespectful, and their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other."That's an extremely interesting statement, and I'd like everyone to meditate on that one for a minute, and - if you're a religious person - tell me how it makes you feel. --- I fear nothing. I believe nothing. I am free. --Nikos Kazantzakis, epitaph. The Creatively Maladjusted by snowlion, 05/22/2003 01:06:46 AM EST (4.50 / 4) You caught me there. :-) (n/t) by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 01:10:44 AM EST (2.50 / 2) Talk about politics by auraslip, 05/22/2003 12:53:38 PM EST (2.00 / 1) Is that a compliment or an insult? by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 09:36:44 PM EST (3.50 / 2) Did you try... by Kaki Nix Sain, 05/22/2003 03:37:52 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Yep. :-) by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 09:06:59 PM EST (none / 0) Heheh by spiralx, 05/28/2003 09:48:50 AM EST (5.00 / 1) I Just Can't Take this Seriously (4.42 / 14) (#8) by Juppon Gatana on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:02:43 AM EST (I posted this on the old version of this story, and since that was obliterated, I'm posting it again here so my two cents stays in the pool.) I think "The Awakening" is merely the onset of a delusional state of mind. I see that you find the term "delusional" disrespectful, but it seems quite appropriate. The definition, according to American Heritage, is: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness." If you think you're elf but all evidence points to you being human, you're probably delusional, all disrespect aside. Beliefs are beliefs, and some of them are delusional. I mean, I agree that not everything in this world is as it seems, but a 30-year-old man with a paunch and a hairless pate is not Kilpaf the Dragon-Man from the planet Zilotron with healing ability +5. I'm sorry to be so irreverent, but I simply cannot believe that people who are mentally stable can take this stuff seriously. I'm all for limited fantasy, which can be fun and healthy, but not for the unbridled indulgence of the wild escapism of "Otherkin." They can think what they like, but it is the job of those of us who recognize ourselves as human to keep them as grounded as possible and restore reality to their lives. Imagination is great, but not realizing the difference between imagination and reality is both dangerous to others and potentially self-destructive. A person who understands the rules of this world (as far as we do) can help other people; a person who feels an "RPG-style Calling" is probably going to be less effective. Helping people is a noble goal, but it doesn't do much good if those people can't appreciate your method of help (e.g. an "invulnerability aura"). - Juppon Gatana 能ある鷹は爪を隠す。 (Nou aru taka wa tsume wo kakusu.) I can't take it seriously either, but... by randyk, 05/22/2003 01:09:58 AM EST (4.50 / 2) Even if you feel you can't take it seriously... by reklaw, 05/22/2003 01:13:59 AM EST (5.00 / 3) 'zactly by randyk, 05/22/2003 01:18:30 AM EST (none / 0) :-) (nt) by reklaw, 05/22/2003 01:19:35 AM EST (2.00 / 1) Neither can I by stormie, 05/22/2003 01:38:36 AM EST (4.25 / 4) it's not a slander or insult by Greyshade, 05/22/2003 01:52:06 AM EST (5.00 / 2) That's what I say by truth versus death, 05/22/2003 02:04:21 AM EST (4.50 / 2) Camus wrote by yammering communist, 05/22/2003 02:14:45 AM EST (5.00 / 6) Don Marquis wrote by Three Pi Mesons, 05/22/2003 10:35:33 AM EST (5.00 / 2) off topic, but nubile = fertile by livus, 05/23/2003 06:21:18 AM EST (none / 0) it's posts like this (4.28 / 14) (#18) by circletimessquare on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:30:40 AM EST that remind me it's high time i founded my own religionpreferably one based on my penis as god, whose members are all nubile young women;-P I'm making a Low Budget HDV Filipino Horror Movie in NYC hehe by reklaw, 05/22/2003 01:44:26 AM EST (4.00 / 1) An empty Ecological Niche? by Viliam Bur, 05/22/2003 10:17:55 AM EST (4.00 / 1) Gives new meaning to the phrase by Juppon Gatana, 05/22/2003 02:00:56 AM EST (4.62 / 8) You're not original. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 06:03:46 AM EST (3.33 / 3) Sources? by ultimai, 05/22/2003 10:41:21 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Sigh. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 05:26:17 AM EST (3.50 / 4) tkatchev == troll (nt) by wurp, 05/23/2003 12:06:16 PM EST (1.00 / 1) Have a cookie. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 01:42:32 PM EST (1.00 / 3) See? by wurp, 05/23/2003 03:08:45 PM EST (3.33 / 3) Have you not heard by Meatbomb, 05/22/2003 12:53:35 PM EST (2.00 / 2) Ah sorry by Jennifer Ever, 05/22/2003 02:18:28 PM EST (4.00 / 3) I'm sorry (4.30 / 10) (#19) by ph317 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:33:33 AM EST I like to be open-minded, and I like to accept people's beliefs. And I certainly uphold your right to believe in Otherkin if you chose to do so...But I am rational enough to see that this is complete horse shit. I give more credence to the 0.5% possibility that there's a grain of truth to the concept of the Sumerian-linked alien origins of humankind than I would to this cruft, and that's not saying much.If you know someone who believes in this stuff, you should really try to help them come back to the rational world, or help them seek psychiatric help. If you believe it yourself... well, I guess I've already pissed you off and there isn't much I can do about it now :) heh by reklaw, 05/22/2003 01:40:59 AM EST (4.75 / 4) nothing new by Greyshade, 05/22/2003 02:17:28 AM EST (4.00 / 4) I swear I previewed! by Greyshade, 05/22/2003 02:20:34 AM EST (none / 0) Yes, I can by ph317, 05/22/2003 02:56:42 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Otherkin are satanic? (2.50 / 3) (#20) by antispamist on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:35:49 AM EST I'm glad to read such a great article with some actual information to it. Until now the only information I have read of anything 'Otherkin' related has been very slanted. Only through an open mind can our soul asscend (don't remember where I read that; if you know drop me a line here.) A useless endevor that will certainly leave u wanting less but getting more. Is this really different from... (4.53 / 15) (#27) by Mysidia on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:49:05 AM EST ...the beliefs held by many religions and people; that people are more than their human body, that they have this thing called a soul that is apart from the human, that exists apart from the body, may continue after the body perishes, &c., &c.. This phenomenon does not seem unusual to me in that it appears to be just a slight variant on a very old idea and sort of belief held by many of the religions of the world... perhaps a belief that one is elf-like is likenable to a belief of the nature of one's soul. I for one find the Zodiac signs and likening of people to Ram, Scorpion, Lion, ..., based on date of birth a stranger sounding thing. :-) -Mysidia the insane @k5 Yes it is different. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 06:01:34 AM EST (1.71 / 7) Go on then... by DrH0ffm4n, 05/22/2003 07:10:08 AM EST (5.00 / 2) You're retarded. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 08:23:14 AM EST (1.00 / 11) Scuse me? by DrH0ffm4n, 05/22/2003 09:04:58 AM EST (5.00 / 3) guh? by delmoi, 05/22/2003 10:14:12 AM EST (3.00 / 1) As a person who believes ... by pyramid termite, 05/22/2003 04:08:25 PM EST (5.00 / 2) WHBT by DrH0ffm4n, 05/23/2003 12:17:31 PM EST (none / 0) OK, now that you mention it. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 01:32:36 PM EST (2.33 / 3) Determinism by DrH0ffm4n, 05/23/2003 01:56:30 PM EST (4.50 / 2) OK. by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 05:09:07 AM EST (none / 0) Actually by DrH0ffm4n, 05/24/2003 03:08:35 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Devils Advocate by CENGEL3, 05/23/2003 02:45:55 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Re: by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 05:10:43 AM EST (1.33 / 3) People can just be wrong ... by Cheetah, 05/24/2003 06:20:21 PM EST (5.00 / 2) I should think... by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 04:10:35 PM EST (none / 0) You have already... by tang gnat, 05/22/2003 09:31:06 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Re: by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 05:20:51 AM EST (1.50 / 6) Universally? by synaesthesia, 05/23/2003 07:12:04 AM EST (none / 0) Please die. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 11:32:52 AM EST (1.00 / 4) What is your opinion of Peter Singer? -NT by CaptainSuperBoy, 05/23/2003 12:26:07 PM EST (3.00 / 1) I don't have one. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 01:23:06 PM EST (2.00 / 3) Then you are uneducated by CaptainSuperBoy, 05/23/2003 01:45:29 PM EST (3.00 / 1) Pardon me. by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 05:11:18 AM EST (2.00 / 2) I repeat by synaesthesia, 05/23/2003 02:08:50 PM EST (none / 0) Lord ghod... by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 05:11:59 AM EST (none / 0) The fact that you think... by synaesthesia, 05/26/2003 05:02:40 AM EST (5.00 / 1) IHBT by DrH0ffm4n, 05/23/2003 12:31:44 PM EST (none / 0) Re: by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 01:27:36 PM EST (4.50 / 2) Cos the bible tells me so by pnadeau, 05/26/2003 11:35:12 AM EST (none / 0) I call bullshit by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 04:12:15 PM EST (none / 0) Have you deduced this by DrH0ffm4n, 05/29/2003 04:22:09 PM EST (none / 0) I know it by CodeWright, 05/29/2003 10:22:19 PM EST (none / 0) Arse by DrH0ffm4n, 05/30/2003 03:27:03 PM EST (none / 0) Perhaps you miss the point by CodeWright, 05/30/2003 04:47:52 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Yes I did by DrH0ffm4n, 05/30/2003 06:04:25 PM EST (none / 0) contradiction in terms. by delmoi, 05/22/2003 10:15:31 AM EST (4.33 / 3) No. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 12:00:00 PM EST (1.16 / 6) Empirical evidence... by reklaw, 05/22/2003 12:06:28 PM EST (4.50 / 2) Exactly right. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 03:35:29 PM EST (1.00 / 4) Not quite ... by gumbo, 05/22/2003 07:06:20 PM EST (5.00 / 2) What? by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 05:15:46 AM EST (1.60 / 5) Ah, ok by gumbo, 05/23/2003 01:02:04 PM EST (4.50 / 2) Learn some logic. by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 01:34:45 PM EST (1.75 / 4) My logic is just fine thanks by gumbo, 05/23/2003 02:08:57 PM EST (4.00 / 2) So, by your logic... by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 05:06:14 AM EST (2.50 / 2) Precisely my point by gumbo, 05/24/2003 12:40:23 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Lord ghod, do you even *know* how to read? by tkatchev, 05/24/2003 02:37:02 PM EST (3.00 / 3) Again ... by gumbo, 05/24/2003 03:58:31 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Wait a minute by pyramid termite, 05/25/2003 12:06:36 AM EST (4.00 / 2) I don't think we disagree here by gumbo, 05/25/2003 01:01:04 AM EST (4.75 / 4) btw by gumbo, 05/25/2003 01:10:32 AM EST (3.00 / 1) Let's get down to earth here. by tkatchev, 05/25/2003 05:04:50 AM EST (2.66 / 3) Justice cannot be fair by xL, 05/26/2003 09:39:43 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Solipsist! by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 04:15:30 PM EST (none / 0) Don't be fatuous by CaptainSuperBoy, 05/22/2003 12:33:52 PM EST (3.33 / 2) Really? by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 03:36:44 PM EST (2.00 / 3) Certainly by CaptainSuperBoy, 05/22/2003 03:48:18 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Really? by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 05:13:44 AM EST (1.00 / 5) No by CaptainSuperBoy, 05/23/2003 09:13:11 AM EST (1.00 / 2) Really? by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 11:35:09 AM EST (1.00 / 3) You're stupid. by Kax, 05/25/2003 12:03:07 AM EST (1.20 / 5) I may be stupid. by tkatchev, 05/25/2003 05:12:37 AM EST (1.00 / 1) Are you sure? by Kax, 05/25/2003 03:39:18 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Quite. by tkatchev, 05/25/2003 04:24:26 PM EST (none / 0) arguing from definitions by pin0cchio, 05/23/2003 11:34:10 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Relgious compairison (4.50 / 6) (#43) by sto0 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 04:29:14 AM EST `However, in my opinion, calling Otherkin delusional or insane is obviously highly disrespectful, and their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other.'I would agree with this, of course, but in some ways Otherkin faith seems to differ from the majority of religions.Most religions take their teaching from some revelatory book such that the teachings/stories in it are influenced, under varying degrees, from the religious deity attached to that belief system. In other words, most religions claim that the world is as we see it, albiet with some extra spiritual dimension that is revealed to us through scriptures (and religious leaders' subsequent interpretations of this, perhaps).Otherkin seems to fundamentally differ in this aspect; the revelation is utterly internal (yes, I understand that many religions have a personal revelation as an important part too), with no reliance on texts written by someone else inspired by their deit{y|ies}. Also, their perception of reality is altered in a very different way to religious perception of reality. Often people speak of having a ``hole'' in their lives filled when talking about their religious revelation, rather than their entire perception of reality being skewed in some way.[Pants -- accidentally posted this as Editorial] Faith? Religion? by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:40:10 PM EST (3.00 / 2) Otherkin not a faith? by Ereshkigal, 05/28/2003 02:52:14 PM EST (none / 0) keeping an open-mind by vericgar, 06/02/2003 06:39:54 AM EST (none / 0) This isn't even worth debating (2.84 / 13) (#45) by poyoyo on Thu May 22, 2003 at 04:44:53 AM EST Anyone who buys into this nonsense is so obviously immune to basic logic that trying to convince them otherwise is just a waste of time. My reaction to this is just to throw up my hands and say, go ahead and stay in your insane fantasy world, and I'll stay on planet Earth. Normally I like talking metaphysics, but in this case, -1. Eggzactly by sinexoverx, 05/22/2003 05:27:33 AM EST (3.72 / 11) Tolerance by thejeff, 05/22/2003 08:43:22 AM EST (5.00 / 8) I don't see what logic has to do with it by DrH0ffm4n, 05/22/2003 07:18:44 AM EST (2.33 / 3) He said ... by sinexoverx, 05/22/2003 07:54:46 AM EST (none / 0) So... by reklaw, 05/22/2003 08:47:56 AM EST (3.66 / 3) your argument by sinexoverx, 05/22/2003 03:05:13 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Logical consistency by DrH0ffm4n, 05/22/2003 09:46:24 AM EST (2.50 / 2) It's not that stupid by nictamer, 05/22/2003 10:46:47 AM EST (3.80 / 5) Reality check. (4.40 / 10) (#51) by Verax on Thu May 22, 2003 at 06:29:18 AM EST [...]their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other. I assume that by "valid" you mean corresponding to reality. So let's put this assertion of yours to the test. I believe that when one walks off a high cliff, one goes splat. Let's say Otherkin DragonBoy believes he can fly. Are you really going to tell me that both beliefs are equally valid? Don't get me wrong. I do think it's good to keep an open mind, but not so open that the brains actually fall out. ---------------------------------------------- "It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." -- Mother Teresa of Calcutta Obviously by reklaw, 05/22/2003 08:45:37 AM EST (3.66 / 2) Then anything is valid by Viliam Bur, 05/22/2003 09:57:19 AM EST (none / 0) Distinction: religious belief vs. fantasy by Verax, 05/22/2003 06:45:57 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Actually no by bugmaster, 05/23/2003 08:02:07 AM EST (3.75 / 3) Commonly? by Verax, 05/23/2003 06:26:31 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Re: Reality check by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:59:09 PM EST (2.00 / 2) dragonkin by Verax, 05/23/2003 06:29:05 PM EST (5.00 / 2) ahem by stfrn, 05/25/2003 01:18:34 PM EST (none / 0) .....Let�s see..... (3.71 / 7) (#55) by Niha on Thu May 22, 2003 at 07:31:51 AM EST ...This sounds just like a way to scape from reality... Re: .....Let�s see..... by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:56:14 PM EST (none / 0) Mmmm... no. by Mudlock, 05/23/2003 06:24:26 PM EST (4.66 / 3) Weird beliefs (4.60 / 10) (#57) by minamikuni on Thu May 22, 2003 at 08:14:39 AM EST Well, I think a belief that you are a dragon or an elf is pretty nuts. Lots of evidence against, precious little for, as someone else said below. On the other hand, thinking about it, the belief that communion wafer actually transmutes physically into flesh strikes me as pretty wacky too. (Apologies if I'm misunderstanding Catholic doctrine there; I think that's an accurate description of the belief, but even if not there's no shortage of other miraculous religious beliefs that could be used as examples instead.) The believer can always argue the point. It's not possible to logically convince someone that their most deeply held belief is mistaken. It's beside the point to argue that Otherkin belief is less rational than other beliefs; in that sense I agree with the author that it's as valid as any belief. However, telling someone you're Catholic usually doesn't get you committed. Telling someone that you believe you are a dragon might. The important difference is not how irrational a belief is but the extent to which it's likely to get you ridiculed by society. I approve of and accept weird beliefs to precisely the extent they make the believer be nice to other people and do good things. From the above description, it sounds like Otherkin beliefs tend to be isolating and harmful. For that reason, if someone I knew said they were an elf I'd give them the number of a good psychiatrist. different angle by jolt rush soon, 05/22/2003 03:22:55 PM EST (4.50 / 2) Transubstantiation by Verax, 05/23/2003 04:24:05 AM EST (3.66 / 3) This Article Sucks by Alfie, 05/24/2003 02:38:23 PM EST (4.00 / 2) Blanks? by reklaw, 05/24/2003 02:52:13 PM EST (3.50 / 2) Sorry by Alfie, 05/24/2003 04:27:35 PM EST (4.50 / 2) Yeah, by reklaw, 05/24/2003 10:36:35 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Beliefs by Alfie, 05/29/2003 03:56:50 AM EST (4.00 / 1) Ignorance... (4.14 / 7) (#61) by Imperfect on Thu May 22, 2003 at 08:37:23 AM EST I was going to post this in reference to another comment, then another, then another, until finally it really needed it's own thread. Just because White Wolf has gone and made a game from the Otherkin mythos doesn't mean that's where it originated in history or orignated for those who believe in it. This mythos is really very old, some would say older than Christianity. It just hasn't gotten as much publicity in the world at large (good or bad) until recently, as a role-playing system. So before you submit your comment about "nerdy geeks playing games," wake up and think for a second. Not perfect, not quite. Well, I'm awake... by Jennifer Ever, 05/22/2003 01:59:04 PM EST (4.33 / 6) Fair enough by Imperfect, 05/22/2003 04:56:11 PM EST (3.00 / 1) Who knows by bugmaster, 05/23/2003 12:56:35 AM EST (3.00 / 1) The discordians are perfectly serious by Emissary, 05/23/2003 04:10:24 AM EST (4.75 / 4) There is no appreciable difference by Happy Monkey, 05/29/2003 02:36:39 PM EST (none / 0) Thank you (3.50 / 6) (#78) by dreancha on Thu May 22, 2003 at 10:42:55 AM EST I would like to thank you, reklaw, for braving the queue to post this article. I found it interesting, and personally voted it up. I hope it makes it. Nothing like turning denial into a lifestyle... (4.20 / 10) (#80) by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:01:39 AM EST Bet this ties in well with the trend towards extreme body modification. -- Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference? We're just about almost there already by mcc, 05/22/2003 07:30:16 PM EST (4.00 / 1) says it all by ZorbaTHut, 05/22/2003 10:48:37 PM EST (3.50 / 2) Interesting, but sad... (4.76 / 13) (#82) by LairBob on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:13:51 AM EST I've got to admit, I'd never heard of "Otherkins" specifically before, as a modern movement, and I definitely think it's interesting that it exists, so I voted for it within the section, but overall, this just strikes me as a tragic symptom of disaffectedness and alienation. The very fact that almost every 'Otherkin' comes from their own independent 'Other' reality should warn all but the most deluded that it comes from a deeply subjective and personal source. That's not to say that a good chunk of these folks don't deeply believe in their 'Otherness', but that anyone who knows an 'Otherkin' needs to seriously try and understand why they feel that way. I had a buddy in college who got to a point where he slept almost 20 hours a day, even more during finals and term papers--he clearly was not just really tired, but refusing to confront some elements of the stress he was under. In some folks, it may even be akin to how some schizophrenics hear voices--it now seems, at least occasionally, to be an actual neurological effect of the way that the various components of their brains communicate. Basically, messages from one area of the brain are interpreted as 'voices' by another as they are received. (Julian Jaynes has some really interesting, if debatable, ideas on the historical implications of this possiblity in The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.) It's very possible that feelings most of us take as internal emotions are interpreted as external forces by some folks, under certain neurological conditions. No matter what, unless you've just got one of those (annoying) friends who just has to be different, and has a real penchant for F&SF, I'd try to take a pretty sober look at anyone I cared about who considered themselves 'Other' like this. Some points... (4.81 / 11) (#84) by Run4YourLives on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:51:29 AM EST I voted this up for one reason alone: I didn't know that this existed until I read the article, so in a way you've enlightened me.That being said, this is just another cult based on nothing really. Hmmm... I think I just described every religion on the planet, organized or not.What I think is interesting is why we feel the need for religion at all. What exactly is everyone looking for? (Yes, everyone is looking, whether they find their solace in Jesus, Allah, Sex, Drugs or fancy cars, they're all searching for something more) What is it that we're drawn to that makes us lean away from the idea that something more exists out there?At any rate, I'd perfer an article that addresses these subjects a little more. (not like a multitude of research hasn't been done already)You still get a +1 from me though, even though I'm not sure these folks warrant the attention. It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown whoops... by Run4YourLives, 05/22/2003 11:52:56 AM EST (3.00 / 2) Most poeple just don't want to deal... by confrontationman, 05/22/2003 02:19:22 PM EST (3.75 / 4) but... by Run4YourLives, 05/22/2003 03:19:14 PM EST (3.00 / 2) Sure were all unique, by confrontationman, 05/22/2003 05:48:42 PM EST (2.66 / 3) True by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 04:27:36 PM EST (none / 0) Goddamnit by Emissary, 05/23/2003 04:14:54 AM EST (4.75 / 4) More complex, I think by rusty, 05/23/2003 11:36:54 AM EST (5.00 / 8) Haven't seen it. by rasmoh, 05/25/2003 09:22:04 PM EST (3.00 / 1) That would be by Happy Monkey, 05/29/2003 02:34:22 PM EST (none / 0) My personal reason... by SiMac, 05/22/2003 04:49:24 PM EST (3.50 / 2) Meaning, probability, and control over others... by Verax, 05/23/2003 03:45:20 AM EST (4.00 / 2) Prophets vs. Religions, et al. by Cheetah, 05/24/2003 05:27:22 PM EST (4.75 / 4) Source by Verax, 05/26/2003 07:08:48 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Probability by SiMac, 05/24/2003 06:40:44 PM EST (4.00 / 2) Please explain. by Verax, 05/26/2003 07:11:57 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Occam's Razor is.. by SiMac, 05/31/2003 02:25:39 PM EST (none / 0) On the Catholic Church and control by SiMac, 05/31/2003 02:32:11 PM EST (none / 0) Where's your supporting evidence? by Verax, 05/31/2003 08:14:45 PM EST (none / 0) Here are some references... by SiMac, 06/04/2003 11:14:44 PM EST (none / 0) Ultimate Meaning by zakalwe, 05/23/2003 08:41:53 AM EST (4.33 / 3) Life without meaning isn't a problem... by SiMac, 05/24/2003 06:46:12 PM EST (3.00 / 1) not looking, belonging by SocratesGhost, 05/22/2003 11:24:21 PM EST (4.75 / 4) My experience with athiesm. by Verax, 05/23/2003 06:31:11 AM EST (3.50 / 2) Theism, atheism, and morality by TheSleeper, 05/23/2003 11:06:56 AM EST (3.75 / 4) Good Comment by cr8dle2grave, 05/23/2003 07:03:07 PM EST (4.50 / 2) It all started when by the77x42, 08/22/2003 02:45:17 AM EST (none / 0) Another subheading in the list (3.55 / 9) (#92) by hatshepsut on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:26:55 PM EST of people who just can't deal. Anyone who told me they were "otherkin" would get the same treatment as the people who tell me they are practicing catholics, want to be missionaries, are interested in Scientology, or any other of a multitude of oddities: a non-committal "oh really?", and a mental note on my part to never have a serious discussion about anything important to me. I am all for imagination, reading sci-fi and fantasy, RPG's, video games and what-have-you, but I also sincerely hope that I, and anyone else who pursues these activities, will put them aside at the end of the day with the understanding that, while fun, it isn't REAL. When much younger, I spent a day or two telling people in my class that I was really from Mars, and that my parents had adopted me, when my real family had died during our ship's crash landing. I thought it was REALLY funny at the time. What scares me in retrospect is the number of people who nodded enthusiastically and said "wow, I wish I was from Mars!". What do you want to bet that some of them are now "otherkin"? Only Catholics? by davidduncanscott, 05/22/2003 04:43:39 PM EST (none / 0) All organized religions by hatshepsut, 05/26/2003 09:16:01 PM EST (none / 0) really? Why? by Verax, 05/27/2003 11:10:11 PM EST (none / 0) Why? by Verax, 05/23/2003 03:52:35 AM EST (5.00 / 3) Why would I? by hatshepsut, 05/26/2003 09:24:05 PM EST (5.00 / 1) You're assuming... by Verax, 05/27/2003 07:20:17 PM EST (5.00 / 1) I'm the angel of death... (2.83 / 6) (#94) by confrontationman on Thu May 22, 2003 at 02:16:35 PM EST but I'm on sabbatical, so it's forbidden for me to reveal my super, secret, special powers and true form. So why crazy? (4.00 / 11) (#97) by kphrak on Thu May 22, 2003 at 02:27:32 PM EST +1SP for an interesting article on some of the nuttiest people on earth. I wouldn't even call these guys "crazy as a loon"...more like "crazier than a shithouse rat". I'm not surprised that Otherkin can be such an appealing belief for some people, however. Especially in America, and I mention that because I'm certain that at least 75% of them live here. I was going to write this long explanation on how it occurs because of discontent that is reinforced by advertising, peer pressure, mental problems that lead people to adopt their own version of reality, and playing way too many RPGs, but it started wandering so I deleted it all. So instead I'll talk about why people, including myself, would think Otherkin is crazy and not, say, someone like me, who believes in an all-powerful being that sent his son to die for crimes we committed against him. What's the difference? The difference, as I see it, is that we can find a chain in Otherkin that firmly binds it to reality. The dream you had last night about a shadowy figure trying to kill you with an axe might be a supernatural warning...unless you watched a murder horror film last night. Then it's just a stupid dream caused by a late dinner and way too much late-night TV. In Dickens' A Christmas Carol, what is the first thing that Scrooge does when he sees Marley's ghost? He attempts to ground him in reality, explain him away as a figment of his imagination caused by indigestion. In this case, the idea of an omniscient, unseen God or a Savior who arrived 2000 years ago is plausible; it's an original idea and it can't be easily bound to reality. The idea of reincarnation and nirvana, or gods that control natural forces, may seem a little hokey to a Westerner, but it can be accepted by a "reasonable" mind. On the other hand, a cult started by a former car salesman a few years ago might not be accepted because it does not seem original, especially when the salesman now has a fleet of limousines due to his injunction to cultists to sell all their worldly goods. Now there's something we can grasp -- it must be about money. That's simple enough; it can be explained and thus is not plausible. In the case of Otherkin, the fact that believers all choose aliens, New Age beings, and things from RPGs immediately provides a grounding to reality. It's not original -- it came from the mind of Gary Gygax, whoever (I don't remember) created the X-Files, and J.R.R. Tolkien. They're lonely, depressed, and boring (at least to themselves; to shrinks, I'm sure they're anything but). We have a psychological reason for their beliefs. These two reasons immediately tell us "they believe in something we see through -- hence, they are crazy." So yes, as the article suggests, their minds may be more open than others. Unfortunately, things that are open too wide tend to leak their contents. Incidentally, this is not a modern phenomenon; H.P. Lovecraft (famous horror-writer of the 30s) was almost an Otherkin believer himself, and wrote a story about one. Describe yourself in your sig! American computer programmer, living in Portland, OR. Or... by LilDebbie, 05/22/2003 02:44:36 PM EST (4.25 / 4) Phallacy. by tkatchev, 05/22/2003 03:42:09 PM EST (2.00 / 4) phallacy? by melia, 05/22/2003 08:51:49 PM EST (3.66 / 3) You're phyred by mcgrew, 05/22/2003 11:14:53 PM EST (3.66 / 3) Re: by tkatchev, 05/23/2003 05:11:25 AM EST (1.75 / 4) That reply was a bit phallusy by davidmb, 05/23/2003 06:31:58 AM EST (1.00 / 1) WTPH?! by Jetifi, 05/24/2003 05:23:40 PM EST (none / 0) Lovecraft by Tatarigami, 05/22/2003 09:16:26 PM EST (4.00 / 2) Somewhat true, but... by kphrak, 05/23/2003 02:52:24 PM EST (5.00 / 2) I don't have a comeback to that by Tatarigami, 05/26/2003 05:06:29 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Aliens? Where? by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:46:02 PM EST (none / 0) Another generalization by kphrak, 05/23/2003 05:18:21 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Another generalization by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 05:37:01 PM EST (2.00 / 4) mythology is not the main draw by bluefusion, 05/30/2003 07:19:27 AM EST (4.00 / 1) Hard to say by kphrak, 05/30/2003 12:55:29 PM EST (none / 0) Okay (4.13 / 15) (#101) by LilDebbie on Thu May 22, 2003 at 03:08:07 PM EST So a bunch of nuts start taking their role-playing games a little too seriously and form a new religion. I'd blame White Wolf for this except for the crystal clear disclaimer they place at the front of every book. An example from Mage: the Ascension. Mage: The Ascension is a game. It's a game about mature themes and difficult subjects. As such, it requires not only imagination but common sense. Common sense says that words in an imaginary game aren't supposed to be real. Common sense says that you don't try to do "magic spells" based on a creation derived entirely from someone else's imagination. Common sense says that you don't try to dig up agents of the supernatural just because of inspiration in some wholly fictional source. Common sense says that the game is just for fun, and that when it's over, it's time to put it away. If you find yourself flying in the face of common sense, then close this browser down, back away slowly and seek professional help. For the rest of you, enjoy the unlimited possibilities of your imagination. Last I checked, Cat 4 hurricanes haven't landed in Florida - postDigital - "browser" => "book" by LilDebbie, 05/22/2003 03:10:16 PM EST (2.00 / 1) Ignorant bashing of role-players... 1 by Imperfect, 05/22/2003 08:11:53 PM EST (2.00 / 3) Ignorant misinterpretation by LilDebbie, 05/22/2003 11:07:10 PM EST (3.50 / 2) Just one problem LD ... by ucntcme, 05/26/2003 09:00:35 PM EST (none / 0) I love it when... by Imperfect, 05/30/2003 10:15:43 AM EST (none / 0) Mage Rules ! by bugmaster, 05/22/2003 10:46:48 PM EST (3.00 / 2) Creativity over twinking? Doubtful. by McMasters, 05/29/2003 02:24:41 PM EST (none / 0) I disagree by bugmaster, 06/01/2003 12:26:06 PM EST (none / 0) Not all 'kin roleplay by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:28:59 PM EST (2.75 / 4) Seek professional help by LilDebbie, 05/24/2003 02:13:53 PM EST (4.00 / 4) Translation: by Kistaro Windrider, 05/24/2003 11:01:36 PM EST (1.50 / 2) It's more along the lines of by Kax, 05/24/2003 11:50:50 PM EST (4.25 / 4) What issues? by Kistaro Windrider, 05/25/2003 02:17:55 AM EST (3.33 / 3) It matters by Kax, 05/25/2003 03:38:30 PM EST (2.33 / 6) ..and you care why? by bluefusion, 05/29/2003 11:37:51 PM EST (5.00 / 1) On people who think it matters... by Josh A, 05/29/2003 06:31:42 AM EST (none / 0) Ah, Memories.... (3.30 / 10) (#105) by The Turd Report on Thu May 22, 2003 at 03:30:05 PM EST I remember they had a newsgroup back in the day when UseNet was semi-usable. We trolled the shit out of that group. They were all were-dragons, were-wolves, were-tigers, etc and they made up their backgrounds and posted them and talked about changing in to a wolf at night and prowling around. Trolls became: were-rabbi, were-circles, were-Pontiacs, were-dung. Then every one in a.f.k-m.n and a.a.v.f.f.f came in and trolled/meowed/flamed the place to bits. That was alt.horror.werewolves ... by pyramid termite, 05/22/2003 04:19:54 PM EST (4.00 / 6) Spiro the Werecircle! by The Turd Report, 05/22/2003 05:22:33 PM EST (3.83 / 6) First, by it certainly is, 05/26/2003 08:12:17 PM EST (2.00 / 9) You need Shock Treatment by pyramid termite, 05/27/2003 07:11:02 PM EST (1.12 / 8) Fallatious Disregard by it certainly is, 05/28/2003 07:58:33 AM EST (1.40 / 10) What's really funny is .... by pyramid termite, 05/29/2003 09:09:55 PM EST (none / 0) Yup. by it certainly is, 05/29/2003 09:19:31 PM EST (none / 0) This disturbs me by samiam, 05/22/2003 05:44:35 PM EST (3.66 / 3) So, you would say that ... by pyramid termite, 05/22/2003 06:12:28 PM EST (4.57 / 7) actually by vinay, 05/24/2003 04:40:13 PM EST (none / 0) AS would be the proper term ... by pyramid termite, 05/25/2003 12:21:41 AM EST (2.50 / 2) Apologies then by samiam, 05/28/2003 09:16:07 PM EST (none / 0) So by The Turd Report, 05/22/2003 06:56:00 PM EST (1.50 / 2) well, yes by Hakamadare, 08/22/2003 11:44:55 AM EST (none / 0) Why not just say you were trolls? by nebbish, 05/23/2003 08:03:36 AM EST (3.66 / 3) +1 (3.30 / 10) (#119) by Laiquendi on Thu May 22, 2003 at 05:45:41 PM EST I'm a Leprachaun! umm ... do something leprachaunish. [nt] by tang gnat, 05/22/2003 09:20:22 PM EST (1.00 / 1) Caught ya! by mcgrew, 05/22/2003 11:08:10 PM EST (1.33 / 3) Wish on... by DrH0ffm4n, 05/23/2003 12:51:17 PM EST (2.50 / 2) No shit by mcgrew, 05/23/2003 07:07:40 PM EST (2.00 / 2) Some people believe they are otherkin (4.00 / 13) (#121) by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu May 22, 2003 at 05:58:12 PM EST And some people believe in God. And some people believe in Reagenomics. Some people are really fucking stupid. By the way, -1. I'm like Jesus, only better. Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour Further Evidence (4.37 / 8) (#123) by coljac on Thu May 22, 2003 at 06:32:31 PM EST I tell you, there is nothing so contrary to common sense that someone will not believe it. My own studies on skepticism and religion, especially when writing and speaking about Scientology, left me with this firm conviction. I could start a cult based on the fact that I have a boa constrictor for a penis. I mean this literally - I literally believe, based on all the evidence, that I could convince somebody of this fact and furthermore that they and others like them could be persuaded to follow me and testify of its life-affirming powers to others. +1 for providing more evidence for my hypothesis. --- Whether or not life is discovered there I think Jupiter should be declared an enemy planet. - Jack Handey Great! how do I benefit from your mighty power?n/t by livus, 05/23/2003 06:14:48 AM EST (5.00 / 1) start by taking this free personality test [nt] by tichy, 05/24/2003 01:09:50 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Easy trap to fall into (4.83 / 24) (#129) by fluffy grue on Thu May 22, 2003 at 07:45:12 PM EST I've known many people who believe that they're born into the wrong species, often because they have some deep-seated emotional issue which they need to distance themselves from. For a few years I'd managed to convince myself I was "really" a porcupine. Discovering "furry" stuff online didn't help at all. :) Fortunately, I eventually recovered from that, and I think most people eventually outgrow it when they come to realize that they're just stuck in a self-destructive fantasy. I think it's an easy pattern to get into when you have a loss of control over your own life; you start to think that there's no way that this life could really be you, and that it seems much more logical that you're "really" something else, something which wouldn't have these problems, something which just has a carefree life in a forest, and it's easy to just run with it from there. It's easy to ridicule someone for getting into such a self-delusional state, but when the mind is under a lot of stress, weird stuff can happen, and things which make no sense at all can seem to have perfect clarity. --"Is not a quine" is not a quine.I have a master's degree in science![ Hug Your Trikuare ] hmmm, same sort of thing I wanted to post. [nt] by vyruss, 05/23/2003 07:09:28 PM EST (3.00 / 2) Elves and others (4.55 / 9) (#133) by Tatarigami on Thu May 22, 2003 at 08:52:21 PM EST Based on the premise that any internally-consistent set of beliefs deserves as much respect as mine do, I see no reason to openly scoff if someone chooses to think they're an elf. (I managed to convince myself the last MP I elected wouldn't screw over the tech industry. That's arguably a bigger leap of faith.) I wouldn't deny anyone a creed that brings them some satisfaction without hurting anyone else.It takes -- or should take -- a lot of confidence in the world and your place in it to point and laugh at the tenets someone else is living by. At the very least, anyone willing to criticise someone else's worldview should be prepared to defend their own -- without resorting to phrases like "it's obvious that" or "anyone with an ounce of sense can see". Fair Enough by bugmaster, 05/23/2003 01:47:57 AM EST (3.00 / 5) These by DrH0ffm4n, 05/23/2003 12:54:52 PM EST (2.50 / 2) I've met one by Shren, 05/28/2003 12:46:29 AM EST (none / 0) Insane? (3.90 / 10) (#138) by wji on Thu May 22, 2003 at 09:28:36 PM EST No, of course these people aren't insane. Just arrogant and stupid. Insanity is a disease you can't control. Arrogance and stupidity, however, deserve contempt. In conclusion, the Powerpuff Girls are a reactionary, pseudo-feminist enterprise. Please by Alfie, 05/24/2003 03:01:55 PM EST (3.50 / 2) ...arrogant and stupid?... by bluefusion, 05/29/2003 11:44:20 PM EST (3.00 / 2) Changeling: The Dreaming (3.14 / 7) (#142) by bugmaster on Thu May 22, 2003 at 10:40:40 PM EST If they are going to rip off someone else's ideas, they should at least disguise the fact better... >|<*:= Older than WW. by Aetius, 05/22/2003 10:53:19 PM EST (3.00 / 1) Re: Older than WW by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:53:30 PM EST (none / 0) Of course! by Mudlock, 05/23/2003 05:59:59 PM EST (5.00 / 1) White Wolfers by McMasters, 05/29/2003 02:12:22 PM EST (none / 0) You seem to equate WW with MET by craigd, 05/31/2003 06:11:50 PM EST (none / 0) Not Just MET/LARPers by Aetius, 06/09/2003 08:15:54 PM EST (none / 0) Rip off? by Orfiel, 05/23/2003 10:03:42 PM EST (none / 0) Interesting (1.14 / 7) (#147) by untrusteduser on Thu May 22, 2003 at 10:48:43 PM EST Would the Greeks be considered Otherkin? Because they sure don't smell human. Unless you meant that as a racist troll... by craigd, 05/31/2003 06:09:09 PM EST (none / 0) interface with reality of others? (3.14 / 7) (#176) by livus on Fri May 23, 2003 at 06:27:50 AM EST I wish you'd commented a bit more on the problems these people face with everyone else's agreed-on or negotiated reality.For example, one of the best things about Otherkin for me has always been their accounts of their visits to the doctors. I'd love to be a witness to an otherkin telling a doctor "but that's because I have two stomachs" or whatever. I'm just interested in that aspect of it. You sort of touch on it when you mention the antidepressants but there's more to it - as a belief it must provide far more challenges and difficulties than just staying out of the nuthouse. --- HIREZ substitute. be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus Same Here by The Turd Report, 05/23/2003 09:12:39 AM EST (4.00 / 2) Two stomachs by Cro Magnon, 05/23/2003 10:03:05 AM EST (4.00 / 1) It's not my body by tyshadragon, 05/23/2003 02:51:35 PM EST (none / 0) so it wasn't you then by livus, 05/24/2003 05:54:20 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Three steps to religion (3.72 / 11) (#179) by davidmb on Fri May 23, 2003 at 06:48:18 AM EST 1. I tell everyone that I turn into a carriage clock and fight crime whenever my TV tells me to, but I don't really believe it. I'm a big stinking liar.2. I tell the same story to everyone, and believe it. I'm a loony and get happy pills from the doctor.3. Other people believe the same thing and we band together, both in real life and online. Bingo! A new religion.The question is, are these people at step 2 or step 3? I suspect step 3, so yay for religious freedom! ־‮־ shiftin' by jt, 05/23/2003 12:31:33 PM EST (4.00 / 1) 4. Prophet!! (n/m) by Conspir8or, 05/23/2003 10:31:11 PM EST (3.75 / 3) Good basic summation (2.75 / 4) (#181) by The Arkadian on Fri May 23, 2003 at 07:29:45 AM EST A fairly well-written piece; far more accurate than some attempts to sum up Otherkin beliefs without getting overly complicated discussing Aspecting, Hosting etc. Regards, The Arkadian <========|===0 nostalgia and my two cents (2.50 / 3) (#185) by bukvich on Fri May 23, 2003 at 08:56:09 AM EST Does anybody else remember localroger's "walk in" story that got voted down in a hail of vitriol in about two hours?It was the same subject, well written, and the discussion (him in the corner of the boxing ring covering up and six people pummelling him) was quite entertaining.Anyway, basic logic, occam's razor, and modern scientific methods make this irrelevant for nearly all of us. The only argument for is that dogmatic skepticism is ultimately self-refuting, and you never really know. But you can't. Look up occult in the dictionary. Occult == hidden. Do you by CodeWright, 05/28/2003 05:07:35 PM EST (none / 0) One in every basket... (3.12 / 8) (#189) by Kistaro Windrider on Fri May 23, 2003 at 09:57:58 AM EST Considering the sheer number of users at K5, it should come as no surprise that at least one of them is Otherkin.Check my username. That alone, or that Googled for, should be a good indication that I may have a slightly different perspective on this item.Anyway: Something that people should remember (from reading these posts) is that, generally speaking, this is held as a reincarnationalist spiritual belief. What, exactly, is so utterly implausible about other worlds actually existing somewhere, and reincarnation screwing itself up and dropping someone in the wrong species?*ducks a flying tomato*Good point. I admit that the odds of a world just coincidentially having species somehow exactly like Earth mythology seem next to nil. There is, of course, the inevitable waving-in-the-face of the "Infinite Monkey Theorem" (although monkeys have been proven to be poor random-character generators- they have a serioius bias for the letter "S"), stating that every possibility must occur with an infinite number of trials. A more plausible hypothesis flying around: Otherkin are nothing new, we're just coming out of the woodwork. Who do you think told the original myths, weaved the tales?Again, remember that this is a spiritual belief- a really, really unusual one, but still a spiritual belief- and can't reasonably be analyzed by scientific reasoning. (In short, nothing I say can convince the atheists out there- y'all seem to be the majority- that I'm not stark raving nuts.)A final point is the definition of "insane" vs. "different." Insane implies that one's quality of life is impaired, or that one is a danger to onesself or others due to the situation being considered as insanity. Liking garlic ice cream is different. Shooting up a McDonalds with an AK-47 is crazy. Otherkin spiritual beliefs are different. An airplane hijacker who believes he channeled the directions to do this directly from Archangel Fred is crazy. (People who believe that there is an Archangel Fred, Avatar of Plumbers, are different.)Weird? Sure. Harmless? Yep. Might as well let us be nuts in peace? Why not?Anyway, I'm essentially throwing myself to the wolves with this post. Ask questions; tear me down. I'll follow the thread.--Kistaro Windrider, Otherkin Yes, it's the same weird guy! What, exactly, is so utterly implausible... by NoMoreNicksLeft, 05/23/2003 10:19:11 AM EST (4.00 / 1) Good point- scientifically, which this ain't by Kistaro Windrider, 05/23/2003 10:50:48 AM EST (5.00 / 2) Interestingly enough... by Back Spaced, 05/23/2003 11:42:53 AM EST (5.00 / 5) Beliefs by Kistaro Windrider, 05/23/2003 12:06:06 PM EST (5.00 / 3) And more beliefs. by Back Spaced, 05/25/2003 08:55:11 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Another 'Kin Steps In by bluefusion, 05/29/2003 11:29:04 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Science and Religion by zakalwe, 05/30/2003 08:49:30 AM EST (none / 0) Many Worlds Theory by Matrix, 05/24/2003 01:33:04 PM EST (none / 0) A good read by Kistaro Windrider, 05/24/2003 07:36:27 PM EST (none / 0) Free Will by Matrix, 05/25/2003 11:58:18 AM EST (none / 0) Definition of Insane by craigd, 05/31/2003 06:00:33 PM EST (3.00 / 1) Are you sure? (3.83 / 6) (#200) by bigchris on Fri May 23, 2003 at 12:14:55 PM EST "However, in my opinion, calling Otherkin delusional or insane is obviously highly disrespectful, and their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other"A valid argument is one in which it's impossible to have the premises all true and the conclusion false1. The central belief of Otherkin is that they are either spiritually or physically a creature from mythology. I would suggest that this is a false premise, therefore their belief would be invalid. So I cannot agree with you when you say that "their beliefs are no more or less valid than any other".1. Introduction to Logic, Harry J. Gensler ---I Hate Jesus: -1: Bible thumper kpaul: YAAT. YHL. HAND. btw, YAHWEH wins ;) [mt] Tautology by Kistaro Windrider, 05/23/2003 01:34:55 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Invalid premise by panZ, 05/23/2003 06:54:54 PM EST (5.00 / 1) By valid, by reklaw, 05/23/2003 07:12:53 PM EST (none / 0) Actually... by Kistaro Windrider, 05/23/2003 07:33:21 PM EST (none / 0) if(A then B) != if(!A then !B) by panZ, 05/24/2003 10:54:20 PM EST (5.00 / 1) validity by reklaw, 05/24/2003 11:18:05 PM EST (none / 0) Tis the modern way... by DrH0ffm4n, 05/25/2003 04:02:09 PM EST (none / 0) Circling in on tangential thoughts by panZ, 05/26/2003 04:10:52 PM EST (none / 0) We agree then :) by reklaw, 05/26/2003 04:23:41 PM EST (none / 0) Tautology? by bigchris, 05/23/2003 10:51:51 PM EST (none / 0) To put it simply... by Imperfect, 05/23/2003 02:22:34 PM EST (5.00 / 2) Interesting (4.14 / 7) (#231) by CENGEL3 on Fri May 23, 2003 at 03:13:39 PM EST These beliefs really aren't all that different from the sort of "Animistic" beliefs present in many hunter-gather societies.In a sense they aren't any less self-consistant or rational then many of the major modern religions.While some might point out that "Dragons" or "Elves" aren't creatures that really exist and therefore the beliefs must be fabricated because such creatures are fabrications. The very same arguement could be pointed out for Christainity and "Angels". Application For OtherKin (4.00 / 8) (#248) by divinus on Fri May 23, 2003 at 08:24:14 PM EST For a long time people have used these themes as an outreach to otherwise isolated individuals.You don't fit into culture or society, and you feel persecuted? It's not because you have no social skills and a bad disposition... its because you just aren't human!Luckily, you're better than human. In fact, you can be anything you want. Faerie? Werecreature? Dragon? Elf? How about a mix?; Have you considered a elven weredragon?Even better... All those pics you draw of yourself as a furry.... Those are really just your -true image- showing through. You really are an attractive anthropomorphic cat, not just another boring old unattractive human.Providing fantasy settings for this kind of thought has been the marketplace for many RPGs, obviously (whitewolf), several comic lines(xmen anyone?), and books (anything Deryni).The best part is, there is a natural built in excuse for being anything you like in that it can be claimed that the source material was actually influenced by the existance of the creature at hand, and not vice versa.I'm really a hobbit. Tolkien met one and wrote books about them. I'm really a Rician vampire; we influenced her. this is my friend Bob "Dark Sanguine Mage" Smith, he's a Stokerian vampire; his people wrote a book about their secret race and published it under the pen name... Oh, but last week I was a Kinder. You think Hickman/Weis just came up with that on their own? They're some of the oldest Kinder on this planet. Over a thousand years old!The problem is, naturally, when people's fantasies become realties.I know a girl who thinks she's a part fae part daemon part vampire. She actually participates in cutting and feeding rituals.Is it a problem when counterculture become enablers for selfdestructive behavior?I mean, these are some seriously fucked up people, and they have other people reinforcing their delusions of grandeur. I'm ashamed to know this....but by spectra72, 05/24/2003 07:41:31 PM EST (5.00 / 1) Difference between this and religion (3.00 / 3) (#257) by Eater on Sat May 24, 2003 at 12:56:16 AM EST I have read through a lot of comments that compare these beliefs to the more "standard" religions, and would like to make an arguement against that comparison. People turn to this belief (I will not be so polarized as to call it a dillusion this time, for that is not the issue I want to talk about) because they don't feel they belong in the world, because they want to escape it, or, as the author said (and I don't mean to be twisting your words here), "have been put on anti-depressants, or are lonely". For these people, this belief of "Otherkin" gives them a reason, or rather an excuse, for being the way they are - it makes them feel they are "special", that they belong when they really do not (at least not in that way). Most real religions, however, provide no such thing. Aside from the simple "only good [practicioners of religion X] go to [paradise/salvation in the afterlife of religion X]" thing (and can you honestly say that you know ONE religious person who is religious for that reason?), there is really nothing of a "personal" benefit in becoming a religious person. You don't get to believe that you are different from everyone else, you don't get told that you are special, or better than everyone in some way - that is what makes a cult, appeal by glorification, a sort of bribe for the ego (of course, some cults are based on the glorification of another, and these are less distinguishable from religions). Because of this, religions attract a different sort of people for different sorts of reasons. Eater. Ogh. (4.00 / 5) (#261) by Farq Q. Fenderson on Sat May 24, 2003 at 01:56:39 AM EST These people are annoying. They're otherwise creative/imaginative people who're taking themselves far too seriously, and have the balls to be arrogant about it to boot.For example, I'm a silly discordian so I believe and disbelive all kinds of bullshit at will. But I'm not so stupid (or annoying) as to pretend that anyone else gives a shit, unless what I'm saying is meant to be funny (whether true or not.)Otherkin: I'm a Faery!Discordian: Yeah, I've sucked some dick myself, but you're not my type, sorry. farq will not be coming back French ML About otherkins (2.50 / 2) (#268) by vrykolaka on Sat May 24, 2003 at 08:04:12 AM EST Hi,I moderate a mailing list in French about otherkins, since September 11, 2000.The address ishttp://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/empyree/After subscribing, you will receive a form. Replying to it is mandatory. -- Force & respect Vrykolaka peeking under the veil (2.50 / 4) (#269) by Eight Star on Sat May 24, 2003 at 12:23:14 PM EST In Star Trek they describe humanity as curious adventurous, and noble. In reality much of humanity is comprised of willfully ignorant, closeminded, racist fuckheads. (or at least so was my perspective once upon a time) 'Humanity' is not reaching for the stars, a few other people are. I have difficulty self-identifying with humanity. When I was slightly younger I would refuse to admit that I was human, other than biologically. What I was, I did not know. I think that the prime cause of the Otherkin isn't delusions of grandeur or a need to belong, it's a sense of 'otherness', the other issues are secondary. I don't think like other people and I react to emotion in uncommon ways. If I believed in dragons and elves, or even souls, it would be easy for me to explain this otherness in those terms. Put another way: If someone has a microchip implated in the brain that inhibits all emotions, is their mind still human? What if it amplifies all (or certain) emotion? How much of a divergence from normal humanity does it take before a conscious entity shouldn't be considered human? What if the divergence is caused by mental illness, or force of will? Is a monk who sets himself on fire and sits still in protest really the same kind of psychological entity as a primate who wanders around looking for things to eat, kill, or mate with? I don't think that's just you by RyoCokey, 05/24/2003 11:14:42 PM EST (none / 0) Sorry, but that is a dillusion of grandeur by Eater, 05/25/2003 05:19:38 PM EST (4.00 / 1) Who is deluding whom? by ucntcme, 05/26/2003 08:46:00 PM EST (3.66 / 2) Yes, I think that you are getting to the point... by chanio, 05/26/2003 10:46:30 PM EST (3.00 / 1) Nothing like a spelling error... by Eater, 05/28/2003 12:56:13 AM EST (5.00 / 1) Notes by Eight Star, 05/29/2003 10:20:28 PM EST (5.00 / 1) That's where you lose it, right there by Eater, 05/30/2003 12:33:56 AM EST (5.00 / 2) summary : ants clone vs diversity by chro57, 06/04/2003 02:38:38 PM EST (none / 0) you mean that story of Alexander the Great... by chanio, 05/26/2003 10:21:16 PM EST (none / 0) Vietnam by Bill Melater, 05/28/2003 02:52:03 PM EST (none / 0) GRAMMAR GRAMMAR (3.66 / 2) (#301) by cbraga on Sun May 25, 2003 at 01:28:04 AM EST s/otherkin/marklar/ and you'll know what I mean... ESC[78;89;13p ESC[110;121;13p 21st Century Cargo Cults (3.75 / 4) (#305) by bolix on Sun May 25, 2003 at 10:22:30 AM EST [Insert Trend Here] / Faith = New ReligionI believe it was Toffler who said that alternative based religions mushroom as science progressively discounts traditional religions. Its not quite the Cargo Cult phenomenon or Clarkes prediction that any sufficently advanced science is indistinguisable from magic. What we have here is people straying from stock "boring" religions towards the fringe metaphors, anything which represents their interpretation of reality. Its a lively and thriving community and worthy of the same (dis)repect accounted towards the older religions.The otherkin trend mentioned above is hardly new. Scientology is based on it. Egyption and Atlantean Psychics made fortunes in the last 200 years. Heavens Gate, Jonestown, Oral Roberts, the Bakkers, the Manson family, Aum Shin Rin Kyo (?), Shirley McLaine and the Raelians. Humanity is hardwired for belief systems. You want to believe so you make X guru a prophet/parental figure. Be assured, I envy the courage of faith but bad science is always worthy of derision. A leap of faith is as prone to error as any personal decision. Terminology (4.00 / 2) (#306) by Eriswerks on Sun May 25, 2003 at 10:58:54 AM EST It seems that a lot of the terminology the author is using (Awakening, Sleeper, etc.) is identical to that found in a roleplaying game called "Changeling: The Dreaming." I don't think the game was ever terribly popular, but it is indeed about people "awakening" to the fact that they are fae who only seem to be human. Did the Otherkin community (or just the author) borrow their terminology from this game, or was it the other way around? The same publishing company made the much more popular "Vampire: The Masquerade" game, and in that case I'm quite certain that the game contributed a lot of vocabulary to vampire enthusiasts of all sorts. ------------------------------------------------ There is no enemy, anywhere. Terminology by vericgar, 06/02/2003 05:32:43 AM EST (5.00 / 1) an agressive society + a lot of information (3.00 / 1) (#337) by chanio on Mon May 26, 2003 at 10:06:06 PM EST I think that people need to own the right of deciding their way of living. But yet, society is impossing another way of doing things, by success, the fear of being unemployed, different sort of violence and repression.Become a witness of the increasing aggression in the content of advertisements...But contradiction, oposition is not a way of freeing from all these. You merely become the non-violent part of this reality.So I think that the only way of defending oneself from the imposition of a certain and not chosen conditioning is imagination. (remember John Lennon?)You would be then able to choose a certain conditioning. Because a life without conditioning, I think that is only possible after a big shift in human life as a whole. ________________ Farenheit Binman: This worlds culture is throwing away-burning thousands of useful concepts because they don't fit in their commercial frame. My chance of becoming intelligent! Is Don Quioxte Taken? (3.66 / 2) (#340) by thio on Mon May 26, 2003 at 11:37:53 PM EST I have always had a fondness for Don Quioxte. If these folks are strong enough to believe.. (3.00 / 1) (#365) by McMasters on Thu May 29, 2003 at 02:14:40 PM EST ..that they are magical space otters, you'd think they would eschew the human-based happy pills.Right up there with sel-proclaimed vampire lords asking you for your Shoppers' Club card. Excuse my bad spelling.. by McMasters, 05/29/2003 02:18:11 PM EST (3.00 / 1) To most 'Otherkin': (3.66 / 2) (#370) by McMasters on Thu May 29, 2003 at 02:37:30 PM EST People don't dislike you because you think you are a giraffe.People dislike you because you say "I am a giraffe, and I am better than you."xoxoxo Believe what you like. (3.50 / 4) (#377) by monkeymind on Thu May 29, 2003 at 10:28:59 PM EST I see no real difference in claiming you are a dragon/alien/bear etc and that when you die you will go to heaven/valhalla/nirvana etc. Niether statement can be proved to hard core rationalists but if it helps you make it through the day without damaging yourself or anyone else. Then good luck to you. I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it. Generalizations (2.33 / 3) (#400) by exZERO on Fri Jun 06, 2003 at 12:36:09 PM EST I agree with the above post. We shouldn't generalize these crazy people. We laugh at them individually, even behind their backs if we must.Don't generalize the insane...there's many different types of mental illness, all of them valid and in this case, stupid. <<Zero_out>> state of the art destructive capability.. (1.00 / 2) (#401) by shrubbery on Mon Jun 09, 2003 at 07:17:18 PM EST As a nano-cyborg, I can hardly believe that they are really as superior as we are to humans. Especially since I can lift 1000lbs and have diode-laser eyes. Yeah I know, diode lasers don't do anything yet, but we're working on something more powerful.. honest! Otherkin (none / 0) (#403) by Zuca on Tue Jun 17, 2003 at 05:34:43 PM EST I want to add a little, and change something, many of you look at otherkin as people who are hiding, or running away from normall life, want to feel special, and in some cases this is true.. But to confess it simply, I'm otherkin, I never had a pre-fase like they say it.. I awakened out of nothing, no basic or anything, I'm a draconic otherkin (dragon) Yet before I awakened I knew nothing about dragons, never read anything fantasy or science fiction... so I ask, where did it all come from then ?? The dreams, and visions, was I so creative as to devise a new species for myself before even finding out it already existed ?? Elven, adjusted and happy.... (none / 0) (#404) by Sfox33 on Thu Aug 21, 2003 at 05:37:13 AM EST Greetings,First of all I wish to say to reklaw, it is a good article, one of the better ones I have seen in my time. I am saddened that I came accross it a little too late, but figure, perhaps my comments will still be seen. Many of the comments on this article and the subject matter sadden me though, as much I was happy to see a good article on the subject. Ok, now to the hard part, yes, I believe I am otherkin. But before I get hit by various rotten vegetables, please hear me out. Then hit me if you still wish to do so. I came to the realization that I was non-human many many years ago, before White-wolf, before the internet. Even before I understood energy use fully, or practiced any sort of magic. The only thing I knew was that for some reason I didn't fit in, and I missed a place that I could not find anywhere on this world. And I tried for over a decade to find this place. I looked everywhere. Knowing people would not understand, I got scared and was quiet about my beliefs. For 16 years. Yes, that is a very long time to live a lie, and to ignore feelings stirring within you. And a very lonely time if you can't tell anyone about that you feel you don't belong, and that you seek your home. My life was not especially hard, nor was it traumatic, there was nothing in there to suggest that it was escapism for me. I grew up in europe and was well educated, traveling throughout a lot of the world before my 6th birthday and speaking Greek and German to boot. By the time I came to the states I already knew that I believed I was not fully human. There I learned English. Once the time of the web came, I searched for many many hours for more information on my beliefs, tried to find that place I missed again, and again could not find any on the subject. I gave up for a while. Eventually in 1998 I found the online communities. I knew already a fair amount of my heritage, before I signed on. There I met people who understood what I felt, and even found some that had the same memories as I did. Down to specifics. Memories I never spoke to anyone about. Memories that there was no way for a random observer to guess. Ok, now before I hear a lot of things about that I'm not fully adjusted to this world, or that I feel something is lacking in my life. Not in the least. My life has only gotten better as the years went on. Working full time I make a pretty decent living. It is so good in fact I paid off my mothers dept, and fully retired her earlier this year. As we speak I am way on my way of being a respectable and published author and am the CEO of a non-for-profit group. In time I even have plans to open several businesses. This is not some lonely overweight kid sitting in the basement of my mothers house. As for physical looks, I'm 127lbs, attractive, blonde, and have several men chasing me. There is really nothing pointing that I would need to escape this world. And yet I still believe I am elven. Does this make me a bad person?Get ready to toss your arguments out the door, because I don't fit any of your conceptions of an otherkin. Otherkin in my mind are not superior to anyone else, but just got born into the wrong species. We live, we learn and we grow. The only thing in my opinion which makes kin hide in basements is not being able to get over the homesickness and adjusting to the here and now. Once they do, the sky is the limit. I have seen some very successful otherkin, who are fully aware of who and what they are, and who live by it. They make the world a better place, even if the rest of the world don't know they exist, even if they walk most of their lives alone. SSilverStarPS: So if I ever write a story about my experiances at home, and someone comes out and says: ohh that sounds familiar, will people also accuse them of reading too much of my fantasy drivel ;P. Just wondering. HELP! by D abraxas, 01/15/2004 01:22:04 AM EST (none / 0) Otherkin: A Short Introduction. | 407 comments (388 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden) Display: Threaded Minimal Nested Flat Flat Unthreaded Sort: Unrated, then Highest Highest Rated First Lowest Rated First Ignore Ratings Newest First Oldest First

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